postlaestadianrevival

I mentioned my background in the word of faith, holiness and pentecostal movements and churches. All three are movements and there are churches started from these..Word of Faith, Holiness, Pentecostal(Full Gospel, Pentecostal Holiness, United Pentecostal, etc.)

Anyway, I would say word of faith is "beyond pentecost"(not just hung up on repentance, the baptism with the Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues but it does teach on these), and really encourages seeking God's promises in the Bible. One faith preacher called it "The Word of God Movement" since it is really a movement based on one studying the Bible and finding all of God's promises. It takes the Bible quite literally. Since it is mostly a movement, there have been some good and bad preachers, so I have chosen to obey "hold on to that which is good." Word of Faith has helped me see beyond the basics of the Gospel, that we have much authority over the powers of darkness. I suppose I could call the Faith Movement "beyond Laestadius" also because we aren't just "poor old sinners" who need to keep repenting and confessing and being so focused on our sins. Ok, we may be poor and weak, but that is not where God wants you to stay or to return repeatedly and binding and loosing isn't just saying sins are forgiven, but getting to the heart of the matter, the cause...addiction, the devil, bondage, habits, oppression, spiritual forces, and confronting these with the word of God to be set free. Since it encourages Bible study from front to back, the freedom and authority of the believer, freed of the curse of the law, our position in Christ, legalism is minimal. Like one Word of Faith preacher says "When I first got in with the Pentecostal/Full Gospel people, some taught it was a sin to have deodorant." Thankfully he moved beyond pentecost, at least the legalistic ones. I doubt any pentecostal people today say it's wrong to have deodorant, but.....who knows.

Other pentecostal folk are more free and don't emphasize the codes of dress or works so much(Assembly of God, Pentecostal Church of God, Pentecostal Holiness, Church of God, etc.) Some such as the United Pentecostal church are similar to the OALC, but they also reject the trinity, say if you have not spoken in tongues then you are not saved, women can't cut their hair and have to wear dresses, no TV, no dancing, men can't have beards, etc....works, works, works..imagine, you work to get saved and work to stay hopefully saved. And to think they call themselves "full gospel." Hmm. Ok. The only "Full Gospel" I know of is the one Gospel according to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John and they never said Jesus told them no beards, only dresses, etc. and when I hear good old folks songs, it's hard to sit still. Nothing in the Bible saying get rid of all your national history and songs and dances. I play the accordion and attend folk dances and many of these folks I get together with are devout and God fearing people. I would stay clear of the United Pentecostal Church and other "apostolic pentecostal" churches....also called oneness because the reject the trinity and really push the works thing too far. Most pentecostal churches also believe that the first evidence of the Holy Spirit filling a believer is speaking in tongues. I don't mind this, but the oneness/apostolics teach this to the point that tongues is the sign of being born again. This is false. If you choose a pentecostal church, ask if it believes the trinity and justification by faith alone and that speaking in tongues is separate from instead of part of salvation. Stick to the more "mainline" pentecostals: Church of God, Pentecostal Holiness, Assembly of God, Pentecostal Church of God, Foursquare Gospel. These are all evangelical in their basic doctrine, in other words, faith alone without works is what saves us and holiness is a blessing by God as we grow in his grace and knowledge of his word.

Holiness Churches: Church of the Nazarene, Wesleyan Church, Free Methodist, emphasize the work of sanctification. These are nice and orthodox evangelical churches. I have learned much about holiness from them. Holiness comes by faith in Jesus Christ, not ourselves. It is a work of the Holy Spirit when he fills our hearts. They teach the filling with the Holy Spirit but not that speaking in tongues is always the first or necessary evidence(a little different from most pentecostal folk). I will add here, that the Word of Faith movement emphasizes sanctification also. It is a work of God in the heart of the believer, by the word(John 17:17), the blood of Christ(Hebrews 9:13,14) and the Holy Ghost(Romans 15:16). Sanctification can be both an instantaneous blessing and receiving of victory and power or freedom as well as a work of grace continually growing in the believer's life from conversion to the final exodus from this world to heaven. Where word of faith differs from holiness and pentecostal churches is that it also believes God will not let a believer fall from grace and be lost again, but is gracious to keep them from falling and if they do sin, there is forgiveness and cleansing, not a total loss of salvation. This is like the eternal security doctrine common among baptists and perhaps thanks to baptists who got into the Faith movement, the security of the believer is preached there. If security is not taught, then all kinds of things will haunt us: am I really saved, God seems so far, oops I failed today oh no!, does God still love me, etc, and thus the door of legalism is opened along with despair and doubts, I think. To me it seems the word of faith movement took that which was most biblical from the pentecostal and holiness movements and from there has gone on to more of God's will and his promises for our lives.

Despite not attending such a church as any of the above, I have held on to that which has blessed me: the holiness understanding of sanctification, security of the believer, the believer's authority and position in Christ with unlimited access to all the weapons to fight against the devil and his empty promises, and receiving all of God's blessings for my life, to go beyond just the basic principles, but to get into the Bible and study, believe and grow stronger and more victorious. Such things are not limited to any denomination, but are important Bible doctrines which have helped me grow. People like myself cherish important aspects of these movements but attend more "traditional" churches, maybe for the purpose of helping people in these churches move beyond the bondage of tradition and getting in on more of God's promises to grow stronger and have victory in their lives. Also I like the more "old fashion" songs and many of the above churches are more to catering to the contemporary scene, but that is OK, because I can take Pentecost, holiness and Faith with me wherever I go.

I receive two free publications however: IPHC Experience from the International Pentecostal Holiness Church, and The Believer's Voice of Victory, a word-of-faith publication from Kenneth Copeland Ministries.
Anyway, that's my input. There are some good articles to boost one's faith.

Thank you for taking the time to write about your church experiences.

I now attend a baptist church, but we also have had a lot of teaching about overcoming strongholds and spiritual warfare.Our church has done used materials published by Neil Anderson, and a few years ago I used his devotional "Daily in Christ" which I learned a lot from.

I had the idea that Kenneth Copeland taught a "name it and claim it" theology. Maybe that was someone else. I believe that God has spiritual blessings he wants to pour out upon us. Material blessings are not always good for us, so He may not give those things to us.

Glad to hear you have your own personal devotions and reading material. Kenneth Copeland is the one who talked about the church janitor and how believers are to CORRECTLY humble themselves and are the devil's worst nigthmare. Mr. Copeland has been criticized as a name it/claim it preacher, but I have known him for a long time and his ministry is one of integrity and accountability. He certainly believes and teaches from an open Bible and encourages this for believers and this is most important when I am looking for a ministry I'll support. His literature has helped me grow stronger and given me hope that God will provide for me and protect me. Recently Mr. Copeland was challenged by some government financial accountability person and he responded back by the due date and also sent letters to partners and also on his website. The person at the finance office said something like "Jesus rode on a donkey"(to supposedly give the idea evangelists don't need an airplane to get around to places to preach). But I thought, well if that is true, all Christians should trade in their car for a donkey..or at least every pastor should come to church on a donkey. It is quite illogical thinking. Mr. Copeland rightly responded that Jesus' riding on a donkey was a fulfillment of a prophecy, not an example of transportation for Christians. Anyway, that's my opinion on the matter.

Speaking of the Baptists, I was baptized in a small countrytown baptist church.

Well I can't argue with his view of humility. As he says, self-abasement is not humility. I think humility is having an accurate view of yourself. The best way I know of to do that is learn more about God. The more you understand about God the more you will understand about yourself and this knowledge will give you true humility. And you will be delighted because knowing more about God is the most wonderful thing that there is. Didn't someone say something like "There is no high like the Most High!"?

When I first started attending my church six years ago, the intro to the church directory said something like "The church has no grater need today than to fall in love with Jesus." I don't really know what it meant then, but now I do. The more I study and learn from His word the more my love for Him grows. What joy!

I am so glad that God brought me here!

Sounds good! I am glad to be here also. Yep, there is no high like the Most High! Amen! It sounds like you are in a good Bible-based congregation.

If I can think of information about other churches, I'll post it here.

All for now. Bed time.

While I was still in a Laestadian church, I moved to an area where there are a lot of Amish people. I was curious about their beliefs, so I read some books about them. One was by a former Amish man who wrote about the differences between the various sects--what things each group allows and what is taboo. While I laughed about restrictions like whether whip sockets on the buggies were OK, etc., I couldn't help but see a real similarity to the Laestadian groups I have been a part of or have heard of. I could have written a similar book, with equally silly rules and regulations and customs about those groups. It helped me to see how ridiculous it all was--especially that each group--Amish, Mennonite, Laestadian, and a whole host of other splinter groups--each believes that THEY alone are God's chosen people! A few disjointed passages from the Bible are used to support their claim, as well as teachings that are handed down from generation to generation that are never to be questioned.

Another small group of plain-type people I have hung out with (who have groups across the country & in some foreign countries) is a group who has no name. (My cousin in WA, who also knew some of these, & I referred to them as "The No-Name Church".

Their claim to adhering directly to the Scriptures is that they have preachers who give up everything to travel & preach to their people. They give up careers, homes, marriage, material goods, etc. & leave their families & go about & preach in whichever community the church tells them to. While they are there, they live with members & often are allowed to use a car owned by a church member.

They do not own buildings; they meet in members' homes on Sundays and often have meetings in a public place during some week night so outsiders can attend.

Their preachers--over half seem to be women--are not seminary-trained, nor do they study anything but the Bible. They brag about how one-minded all their preachers are because the Holy Spirit enlightens all of them the same way.

I found most of their preaching to be quite boring and uninspired, and it certainly didn't further my knowledge of Jesus. I rarely heard a sermon that did not in some way brag about how their preachers leave their homes & families, etc & go out & preach like Jesus did.

I was particularly upset when I attended a communion service & found that they didn't even make mention of Jesus' suffering and death. They also do not serve communion to outsiders. When I spoke to one of the preachers about how I believed that communion was to be taken in remembrance of Jesus' suffering and death & sacrifice for us, she said that they believe we are to meditate on Jesus' life and the things He did.

As soon as they were quite clear that I was never going to join their church, they didn't have much to do with me any more.

Like the OALC & many others, this group has many rules about women not cutting their hair or wearing pants, no TV's, alcohol, etc.,etc.,etc.

More about the "No-Name Church": Their preachers are supposedly all "called by God", although they hold them in such high esteem that I imagine most of their young people at some time entertain the possibility that they are called. When they begin their preaching career, they do not take any vows to stick with it. They can quit any time. There are a few married couples that do it together--usually after their family is all raised.

I have a friend who is of this denomination. She and others from her church always seem familiar to me because of they dress similarly to the OALC women. I am sorry to hear that they are sort of "stuck on themselves" but I guess that happens when outward appearances and traditions are valued too highly.

Hi,
Been a while since I have been here. I have chosen to recant my partnership with Kenneth Copeland Ministries. I spoke highly of him in my previous posts. However, he has been quite vague with the investigation of finances and more important is his ecumenical ties with Roman Catholics(instead of reproving their unscriptural doctrines, he ministers among them in their charismatic meetings and features them in his magazine). Also he claims to get words from God and visions which are contrary to the written word. Isaiah says if they speak not according to the word, it is because there is no light in them.(Is. 8:20). Another one to watch out for is the up and coming Todd Bentley and his connection to a revival in Florida. He claims the Lord tells him to hit, kick and run people down to heal them!

Thanks for the update, Faithful.

I believe the bible teaches that we need to discern the spirits. Just because we see spiritual activity doesn't mean it is the Holy Spirit. I am skeptical about the reports of the Spirit doing things like knocking people over, because it doesn't seem to have any point, and it is not very kind either.

Which reminds me of a question I have.

I have been pondering, the subject of the Holy Spirit. If you know some one who believes intellectually and emotionally but doesn't exhibit the fruits of the spirit does that mean they haven't yet received the Spirit, like the Samaritans in Acts chapter 8? (The fruits of the Spirit that I am thinking of are listed in Galations 5:22.) Or are they resisting the Spirit? Or even worse--am I judging too harshly?

Also, can a person be saved without receiving the Holy Spirit?

Hi Soapbox,
We are indeed instructed by the Apostles to "try the Spirts...hold on to that which is good."(See 1 Thess. 5)

The Lord and the Apostles warn in the last days there will be an abundance of false teachers and false prophets claiming and doing great things in the Lord's name and that they would deceive many. This is why we need to test many teachers today by an open Bible. One problem is so many people just take these charismatic teachers' words at face value..."The Lord told me....." or "He said to kick her in the face...."(this is a real quote from Mr. Bentley). We need to be Biblically literate and use the Bible as a rule and test of what is going around in the visible professing Church. It is not all good, that is for sure.

As for receiving the Holy Spirit, I believe anybody who genuinely repents and believes the Gospel is born of the Spirit and thus receives the Holy Spirit. We see an example of this in Acts 10, where the chain of events leading to the conversion of Cornelius and his household is recorded. Peter proclaims that all who believe receive forgiveness of sins through the name of Jesus. Immediately after he said this, the Holy Ghost fell upon Cornelius and his family with manifestations which showed to the Apostles that they had believed and now God was giving repentance even to the gentile people. Also in 1 Corinthians Paul says "By one Spirit are we all baptized into one body."(1 Cor. 12:13) Of course, I have no problem believing in a subsequent filling of the Holy Ghost and his gifts, because Jesus says the Holy Spirit is given to those who ask(Luke 11:13). Also in Acts we see prayer made for such. Thus many churches have confirmation which basically means "strengthening" and we know that Jesus promised power when the Holy Spirit came, so the Holy Spirit is an integral part of this rite of passage. Other churches may have something like confirmation but don't use the name or this is something left to the individual and God. Nevertheless I think any Biblically literate Christian would admit we should always be full of the Holy Spirit and ask God to send forth his spirt and renew us, change us, strengthen us! However, simple Scriptural salvation is based only on faith in the finished work of Christ. Peter promised Cornelius this when he said "whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins." And also from Acts 16.."Men what shall I do to be saved? They said 'Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved." Regarding your other questions, somebody can intellectually "know" about Christ, yet not have a changed heart or true repentance. We need to be submissive to God's conviction brought in us also. It is not good to resist the Holy Spirit's cleansing work in us. Afterall, He is holy and desires to work holiness in us. Apostle Paul says "Quench not the Spirit" and "This is the will of God, your sanctification(holiness)...he who despises, despises God who has given the Holy Spirit."(1 Thess. 4). Paul also talks about "crucifying" our flesh and thus manifesting the fruits of the Spirit. We need to always cling to the work of Christ and let his blood wash us and cleanse our conscience from dead works to serve the living God.(Hebrews 9:14).

The bottom line for me is that I believe, teach and firmly maintain the Protestant doctrine of justification by faith alone. Alone by faith in the work of Christ we are acceptable before God's throne to receive forgiveness and grace in our time of need. The Apostle Paul says "Therefore, being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ." The Anglican and Lutheran churches summed this up nicely in these words:

"We are accounted righteous before God, only for the merit of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ by Faith, and not for our own works or deservings. Wherefore, that we are justified by Faith only, is a most wholesome Doctrine, and very full of comfort..."

"Also they teach that men cannot be justified before God by their own strength, merits, or works, but are freely justified for Christ's sake, through faith, when they believe that they are received into favor, and that their sins are forgiven for Christ's sake, who, by His death, has made satisfaction for our sins. This faith God imputes for righteousness in His sight. Rom. 3 and 4. "
I hope that helps.

Faithful Remnant: I used to listen to Kenneth Copeland, too, and was not
able to discern the errors in his doctrine. Reading John MacArthur's CHARISMATIC CHAOS was a real eye-opener for me. He uses the actual words that various teachers have publicly preached and shows how they do not line up with God's Word.

Soapbox: I believe as J.Vernon McGee, Adrian Rogers, & David Jeremiah teach, that when a person is saved, he/she receives the Holy Spirit right at that time. As McGee probably puts it, "You get the whole ball of wax!"
Christians are also commanded to "Be filled with the Spirit", so there must
be a possibility to possess more of His power or to allow it to control us more for the glory of God. I believe that David Jeremiah is preaching a
series on the Holy Spirit right now.

Thank you, Faithful, for taking time to answer my question.

I was looking through my copy of Luther's Small Catechism the other day and when I opened the page on the Holy Spirit. In one place it refers to Romans 8:9

"You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ."

I suppose any one of us humans can quench the spirit and end up with little or no evidence of Him in our lives. I think of Saul, who lost the Holy Spirit because he did not obey, I think he did not trust God enough to obey. I suppose this comes back around to Faith. If we believe God we TRUST him completely. He is big enough to save me, his death on the cross was sufficient, enough to pay for all the sins of human beings for all time. Doing things to make myself worthy of salvation shows a lack of trust. A lack of faith.

King Saul was living in a time when even true believers did not have the Holy Spirit living in them. There were times when the Spirit descended on them and moved them for brief periods of time, but from King Saul's behavior, I would guess those times were very brief. He certainly did not have a heart like David, who I think was affected by the Holy Spirit a LOT. King David had a heart that loved God and sought after Him, so it would be natural for the Holy Spirit to delight in being with him. After Saul's initial call to be king, when he displayed genuine humility, I see very little evidence of real, heartfelt faith in God. He was soon corrupted with his power & ego, & went so far as to offer sacrifices, which only a priest was permitted to do. Samuel was very grieved by Saul's behavior because he knew it was abhorrent to God.

I suspect that some of the prophets--like Samuel--had the abiding Holy Spirit in them, because they were used by God to lead His people.

If we only realized what a precious gift God has given us--that He sends His own Spirit to live in us and guide us and protect and comfort us--it would move our hearts to rejoice continually, and we would understand that we can lay worry aside and live in the fullness of joy and peace that God wants for His children. What a wonderful Father we have!!